Mhambi was amazed when he did a search for the term 'Afrikaner' on the Amazon UK site. Up popped none other than the facist Afrikaner Weerstands Beweging (AWB) flag as a fridge magnet.
The company selling the magnet sells everything from Rhodesian to post liberation Angolan flags.
I have written to Amazon to complain. It's up to everybody to fight intolerance and facism everywhere we find it. Even in the electronic jungle.
Monday, May 05, 2008
AWB now in Amazon
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20 comments:
I realise Mhambi is rather focused on South African issues, but I wonder how he feels about the flags of countries like Israel and North Korea also being available on Amazon (I checked).
Would he want Amazon to remove them as well?
Or should freedom of expression reign and all flags be allowed as long as they don't constitute hate speech in themselves?
All flags that self proclaim unrepentant facism and chauvinism imo. I would have no problem with the Transvaal Vierkleur even if it was used as a separatist symbol.
I don't think the Israeli flag or the North Korean flag can be compared to that of the AWB. For a start they represent countries. There are many proud Isrealis that dont agree with the policies of their government.
Secondly my primary concern is South Africa and in particular Afrikaners. Charity, or not begins at home. Afrikaners should make their voices heard loudly when things like Reitz happen because its a crime against all of us.
Thirdly I have a problem with it being sold on Amazon. I have no problem with the AWB having their own website and selling their magnets there. But this does not belong in mainstream society.
Why would you complain against the AWB flag being sold while supporting the Afrikaner nation at the same time? The AWB forms a distinct part of our nation and no amount of bitching will remove that fact. Also, please bear in mind that Amazon is purely capitalistic and would only sell objects that were in demand - obviously AWB flags are once more in demand. If you support freedom of speech, then everyone should be able to express his/her views without being crushed by marxist traitors for their right inclined viewpoints. Not everyone sees the world from a left-wing perspective. Whoever decided that Facism is evil? Maybe you would get more hits on this blog if chose a centrist POW instead of a Stalinist one. Greetings from Boerejeug.
Thanks for your post Marthinus.
I do have massive sympathies for Afrikaners because in my opinion they are the underdogs in so many ways.
But to support the AWB is to damage Afrikaners. Not helping them.
How totally embarrassing to search for Afrikaners in the world biggest book shop and the first thing that pops up is an AWB flag.
But not only that. If I was a marketing consultant I would say, that's about the worst brand association we could get.
The Afrikaner struggle against colonialism and for freedom is indistinguishable from that of many other nations like the Cubans, the Catalans, the Bolivians. It was a laudable and noble cause and it was on the side of right.
But groups like the AWB and their more intellectual predecessors the Ossewa brandwag imported ideas like facism from Europe in the 1930's which are morally reprehensible and stupid and not in accordance with Afrikaner political tradition at all.
In Spain the facists, with a symbol not unlike that of the AWB, are the ones that want a united Spain, one language and are campaigning against independence for Catalunia, the Basque country and now Galicia. They support the monarchy to boot.
This is true almost anywhere you look. The Russian facists are fighting against independence for Cheznya.
Afrikaners have always been a minority. The Free State and Transvaal was chosen for the Boer Republics precisely because unlike Zululand or the Eastern Cape, it was relatively empty at the time. Afrikaners then did not wish to rule over others.
Read through Afrikaner folk songs. They are songs about freedom and justice, not Nazi tunes!
Afrikaners have in many key ways more in common with African Americans than with white America. Think of Barrack Obama's pastor, he is our Karel Boshof.
It suits Afrikaner detractors to paint Afrikaner ideals with the brush of fascism. Why? Because they know that Afrikaners will never get the ground swell of international support they did get during the Boer War if they are seen as a bunch of Nazi wannabes. And secondly the vast majority of Afrikaner intellectuals, artists and musicians will not support any cause so tainted. Furthermore any attempt of Afrikaners to mobilize while excluding black Afrikaans speakers is doomed. The AWB does not endear us to black Afrikaners.
But on a moral level alone we should fight fascism. Fascism is an ideology that professes superiority and the right to dominate through power. It's anti justice, its ugly, its abhorrent.
I don't believe in unbridled free speech, just like I'm not a 100% pacifist. In fact, if you really care about die boere next time you see 'n poephol with an AWB flag in a public space, tell them to get lost or they will be bliksemmed.
Hi Martinus,
I am interested to know how the AWB plans to achieve their goals and by when do they realistically hope to achieve them.
Also, I see that you mention economic systems. What kind of economic system will the AWB have (once they are in power)?
Groetnis,
Nick
PS...and will the AWB (once they are in power) allow unrestricted internet access like we are enjoying now? Or will they censor some sites like the Chinese government is doing?
Wessel, you have obviously put a lot of thought into this. One thing that you have to realise is that there is no such thing as a "black" afrikaner. I am sorry for you if you do not agree on this point, but just the same as blacks there in London are not British, just as the blacks in Paris are not french. I am well aware that the liberal world tries to establish cultural identity without taking etnicity into account, but the unfortunate fact is that race always makes a difference. Coloureds may share part of a language with us, but please don't try to include them in the same boat as us. Also, if you are open-minded (as liberals claim to be) you would look at all the aspects of Nazism without discounting it completely. To be a nazi in Germany circa WWII was to be a nationalist-socialist; meaning that you loved your own people and put them above all others and socialistically speaking, you wanted the same material wealth for all of them. Nazi Germany came up with so many technological advancements that we use today - electron microscope for example. Now before you slam the nationalism part of "NAZI" just think about human nature - if a mother of a young child witnesses her baby being hurt by another womans child - whose side do you think the mother will take? This is the nationalism that is deeply ingrained in everyone of us. As for Afrikaner Volk songs, you forget that they are about Afrikaners and for Afrikaners - the word Folk even means "nation" - this satisfies the Nationalist part of the 'Na'-zi acronym. Now believe me when I say that the last thing I want is for our nation to have a bad name, but we are essentialy a calvinistic nation. As much as some of our people wander from their roots, the fact of the matter is that we are inherintly conservative. While you are in the UK, take a trip to the Isle of Mann. Take a look at their flag which hangs everywhere and is even on their numberplates. It is a triskelion - the AWB sign.
To Nick,
The AWB in power? They are not a political party - they are a pseudo nationalist cultural movement (hence the name A W Beweging). Besides, no one can control the internet - the chinese goverment failed hopelessly in their efforts. Their goals are simply to help the Afrikaner socially and if that means by declaring war on a government that tyrannises our nation, then so be it. One of the reasons the American civil war started was because of 'Taxation without representation', this is now deemed a noble cause. Why not for the White/Afrikaner South African too? We pay over 3/4 of the taxes to a government that we have no say in. Policies discriminating against the "Tax base" are made without us having a say over them. Hopefully the AWB will be able to do something about this atrocity - their flag may be contentious, but as Wessel can see, the movement is gaining popularity once more; even there in the UK amoungst the Expat communities (I was part of it a few months ago), as well as in the States and Oz.
Martinus, I'm not a liberal I'm a progressive, like General De la Rey. I suspect Nick will describe himself as liberal.
Nationalism can be very positive. In fact in the 19th century Europe it was seen as a liberating left wing force against conservatism as it united people against the monarchy.
One of the key problems in Africa is that there's no nationalism. It an attitude that says its only me, or my family, and at best my tribe that matters.
Theres no sense of community, no sense of society. And its one of the main reasons theres so much corruption and failed states. So I have no problem with nationalism per se and I have no problem with socialism per se either.
But theres a difference between nationalism and facism, and the difference is when an organisation wants to project its power over others.
Lets take a look at countries with facist momevments. In Britain its the British National Party, which in reality is English. Theres no Whelsh or Scottish equivalents, both groups who are striving for independence. The facists fight this.
In France you have the National Front, which is French. Not a minority group like the French Basques.
Lets take a look at Spain. The Basque minority there are extremely nationalist, and campaigning, even violently for independence. There main opponents? The Spanish facists.
The Nazis might have had some laudable goals (so did the Communists), but why invade Poland? Why the Czek Republic, a small liberal republic like the Transvaal? The reason, they were not just nationalists but facists.
None of the Boer republics were authoritarian dictatorships as was Nazi Germany, Franco's Spain and Musollinni's Italy. Afrikaners are actually quite an openminded bunch and they like their freedom.
As to your comments about Afrikaners. It trust you know where and how the name was first used, but lets put that aside for now.
Many Englishmen and Frenchmen would agree with your sentiments that only ethic French etc can be real French people. But by all means not all. The current French president come from Hungary and the USA might soon have President Obama. But I digress.
To force coloureds into an Afrikaner state would be as wrong as forcing us apart during apartheid. But if you don't allow coloured to join an Afrikaner state if they want to (fat chance they will after all we did), because of the colour of their skin, you will certainly also loose those Afrikaners that dont want to live in a white only state, but in a cosmopolitan Afrikaans state.
And with that, you will loose your best mucisians writers, probably all the gays (and therefore also all your interior designers). You might think thats not a loss. It will be a culturally a very poor state, a cultural desert. You will have one of the very few states that define themselves in terms of race in the world. If there is such an Afrikaner state I would not want to be called an Afrikaner. In fact I would probably try to undermine it because it will be the death of us. And your children will want to immigrate if they have any sense.
I don't see what a symbol on the isle of Mann has to do with Afrikaners. And just on a practical level you must see that using that insignia is counter productive. You wont attain you goals without broad based support. You are selling an idea with both hands tied behind your back.
PS: To say Afrikaners are inherently conservative is only partially true. An example - The biggest body of gay literature in Africa is in Afrikaans. Would the Kikuyu in Kenya have given up power like National party did?
We might be conservative but in our hood we look rather liberal. En ons almal weet weet hoe warm boeremeisies vry.
PS: Coloured meisies vry ook lekker.
Martinus, there is not be a lot of people still around who try to defend the Nazi's and AWB like you do. It's almost unreal, your arguments. All that I can say is: Amazon should know the symbolism behind AWB, they're not stupid. It's just that the market will prevail. Shocking, but true...
Wessel, ek stem saam met die laaste comment
Interesting debate. But can you explain the comparison of Barrack Obama's pastor with Karel Boshof?
Wessel, on your point about the BNP, there is a scottish nationalist part and they are actually called the SNP, I have been in contact with them from time to time as they have a SA expat in their ranks. The current french president may have hungarian heritage, but after the 3 generations that his family has live in France, it certainly no longer makes a difference (besides he is from hungarian nobility, not just a plain commoner and he is european). To call the Transvaal (Die ZAR) liberal is absurd. As to your point about not wanting to live in an Afrikaner state, why not? The ZAR, OVS, Stellaland, Goshen and the rest were all very successful in their own right. Diversity just creates problems. The Left pedel this multiculturalism thing and it has caused more trouble than anything else - even the passive english who are petrified of their government and possibly the most liberal lot of all are now rejecting multiculturalism - just look at the Leeds race riots for one example and the massive surge of support that the BNP is beginning to enjoy. All over europe Multiculturalism is failing - why do you think that Nic Sarcozy was voted in as president (he is from the hardliner right), in Switzerland the Swiss Peoples Party (Far right) control the Confederation, in Belgium the right Vlaamsbelang is in control of the financial sector of belgium (The flemish region). This just proves that an Afrikaner state would be massivly successful as there would be no "diversity". And to brand interior designers and such as gay is just ignorant. I am an architectural student and a musician and I have many interior architects as friends who are "regte boere", even rugby players and I don't even have to tell you how far from being "gay" I am. The reason as to why african gay literature is mostly in Afrikaans is because few blacks in Africa consider homosexuality as just that - at the risk of stereotyping, many have sex with whatever they can, men, women, babies, even goats (just read some SA news, every night there is at least 2 'berigte' on that sort of thing). Why I mentioned the Manx flag is simply because it bears a marked resemblance to the AWB flag. The fact that Boeremeisies are feisty does not make them any less conservative, my girlfriend proves this point as does my mother. Lastly, the Volkstaat initiative is gaining unprecidented support. People are tired of fearing. They are 'sut' with incompetance. Even when we travel we must go through an amazing amount of bullshit because our passports are now regarded as third world (I am sure you have experienced exactly how difficult it is to travel anywhere with an SA passeport, whereas during Apartheid, exclude all the percieved wrong, we could travel just about everywhere excluding certain african countries and sweden, with ease). I personally know many people who would just like to live in a country where they are safe, where their government gives a shit about them and is not blatantly trying to screw them over at every opportunity, where they can freely express themselves in their own language and watch TV without always having to miss half of the program because they only understood some of the english; where they can live in civilised peace with their own people. This is not a racial thing, this is a ethno-cultural ideal. Wanting to live your life with your own people is a sanctioned human right. Is it so wrong? So many of us are forced to emigrate because of crime and discrimination; we leave with the dream of a new civilised society where we are safe, only to find that we do not fit in. We long for home, but know that we cannot go back because there is nothing waiting for us there. We are stuck in a sort of emotional limbo - some of us become bitter hateful people, others go into denial thinking that everything is fine back home and our multicultural cesspool is working (I always ask those people, "Why did you leave then?")...we wave the terrorist flag high and try to have some sort of national pride focussing just on the natural beauty of our country and nothing else, others just take the easy way out - suicide or drugs (anti-depressants included)...If we had a country that we could really call our own (no issues with other racial minorities), we could escape all this. Why would you be against such a noble ideal? Every Afrikaner would be able to form a part of the society and they would, just as every jew forms a part of Israel, and every Cosovan forms part of Cosovo etc. As to your point about coloured girls; I would have no way of knowing...thank God.
Marthinus hoewel van die groepe wat jy noem probeer om haat en vrees aan te blaas, staan verdraagsaamheid nog baie sterk in Europa. Die verregses het feitlik geen mag nie.
Jy is ook verkeerd om te dink die SNP is een van die groepe wat teen multikulturalisme is. Die SNP is heeltemal teen facisme en rassime. Jy het miskien met hulle gepraat, maar as hulle geweet het waarvoor jy staan sou hulle waarskynlik nie met jou wou praat nie.
'n Multikulturele SA waar diversiteit hoog geag word is in Afrikaners se belang - dis 'n teenvoeter teen die eenvormige Engelse 'SAFFA' identiteit wat die huidige magshebbers in SA probeer afdwing.
Sarcozy is nie 'n verregse (hardliner) nie - die naam wat jy soek is Le Pen. Om Sarcozy se sogenaamde nobiliteit by te sleep is vir my so belaglik. Die beste volke is republikeins. Dat die Britte en sommige ander nou nog nie die ou klomp 'noble' ingeteelde parasiete kon afskud nie, strek allermins tot hul eer.
Laastens, jy noem die kwessie van misdaad in SA. Dit is iets wat swart en bruin mense in SA ook kwel, en wat ons daarom saam met hulle moet en kan oplos.
Marthinus, you touch on many points and I will try and answer them all.
Let me first say that what I do find refreshing is that people with sympathies for the AWB, actually engage in debate. For that I have to commend you. That certainly was not the case not too long ago.
As alleman said, there is no comparison between the BNP and the SNP. The one is unashamedly fascist , wants a United Kingdom, with one language English and no 'foreigners', including white ones like the many Afrikaners and Poles that are now living there. The other is campaigning for Scottish independence. They don't see eye to eye.
> To call the Transvaal (Die ZAR) liberal is absurd.
The Tranvaal was a liberal republic. Think of this, the year is 1898. Spain, still a global power wont become a democracy until 1936 and that won't last 3 years when they will become a fascist dictatorship that would last until 1976.
Germany would take until 1918 to become a democracy, and that would be superseded by the Nazi's. Portugal was not to be a democracy until 1974. China still is not. Russia became one in 1989, but there's even now big doubts over its current democratic credentials. Much of South America including Brazil had not seen democracy until the 1970's. Greece was a dictatorship until the 70's. India became a democracy on independence in 1948. Not a single other state in Africa was a democracy except for the Orange Free State. Many including the big important ones like Nigeria, Kenya (just in name) and Egypt still are'nt.
In 1898 Gen De la Rey as leader of the Progressive party was arguing vociferously in the Volksraad against War with England. It was a parliament that unlike our current one did not cowtow to the executive . It was streets ahead of most countries in the rest of the world. It had very liberal immigration laws and it was easy to become a citizen.
I did not say I don't want to live in an Afrikaner state, I said I don't want to live in a boring culturally static & closed state. And I would rather not see an Afrikaner state if that state is such a state.
>Diversity just creates problems. >The Left pedel this >multiculturalism thing and it has >caused more trouble than anything >else
Your a bit out of step with current debates it seems. In the Netherlands, France and even England multi-culturalism is passe. Now if you want to immigrate there you have to pass a language and history test. In the Netherlands they even show you a DVD of bear breasted Dutch women cavorting on a beach and two men kissing. (This DVD was made by a right wing party mind you.)
The message is, this is Dutch culture, this is our language, fit in , if you don't like it, buzz off. They don't base this on race. In fact the new leader of the right in the Netherlands in black (or colloured as we would say). The previous leader of the right, Pim Fortuyn, in the Netherlands was gay?
It's about language and culture. The main campaigner against multi-culturalism in Britain is the chair person of the equality commission who is black. His point is that different languages and cultures are keeping the races apart.
You mention the successful Swiss right party and Flaams belang and then you say:
>This just proves that an Afrikaner >state would be massivly successful >as there would be no "diversity"
Neither the Swiss right wing party nor Flaams belang would however advocate a racially exclusive state even if they habour racist thoughts. Why? Because many Flemish and Swiss would immigrate if that happened. And it will damage their image as modern states and their economy.
I am sure an Afrikaner state could be massively successful. Provided it does not fall for the folly of being racially exclusive, and letting English speaking whites join (without forcing them to speak Afrikaans).
It should IMO be the other way around. You have to be Afrikaans, speak Afrikaans. Full stop.
One of the main reasons Afrikaners are in the position they are today is the alliance they had with white English speaking South Africa, which insulated the latter from political responsibility which Afrikaners had to carry.
We were caught in a good cop bad cop routine with Afrikaners trapped in the eternal role of the bad cop.
Without English whites an Afrikaner state will naturally develop the diversity of opinion you find in any democracy and Afrikaners won't feel the need to be so 'behoudend'. I will deal with that more fully in another post.
> to brand interior designers and such as gay is just ignorant.
That was joke. And besides I don't regard being gay an insult.
For your information, two of South Africa's decathlon champions I know personally, are Afrikaners and gay, and played provincial rugby.
I dare you to tell them to their face that they are not 'regte boere'. For all Afrikaners so called conservatism the state theater is packed with oomies and tannies when Nataniel is playing, and I bet you that if there were an Afrikaner state it would be a safer place to be gay than in the rest of Africa.
In case you have not being paying attention, people are killed or raped for being gay even in South Africa.
> Lastly, the Volkstaat initiative is gaining unprecidented support.
Great. The ANC has been such a dissapiontment that Afrikaners would be mad not to consider this as an option.
I personally think its still a bit too early to say that the New South Africa is a failure and unworkable, but by 2010 we'll have a good idea.
If it comes to that I hope its a modern progressive state that cares for its citizens like I think it can be. An example to Africa and the rest of the world. I hope Brian Habana considers moving there as well.
I hope Afrikaners approach this in a responsible manner, and don't try and create state like this in a part of South Africa that does not want it.
PS: There are jews of many ethnicities in Israel, including Asian and black ones. and many gay ones.
Alleman about Karel Boshof and Barrack Obama's pastor. Bosho is a clergyman like Rev. Wright. Rev. Wright's church campaigns for 'self determination' and segregation for African Americans. His argument being that black Americans can not fulfill their potential in a majority white state.
Alleman, WatDeVok??? Is jy 'n kommunis? Vir die internasionale lesers sal ek jou in engels antwoord. You may believe that tolerance is the order of the day in the Uk but I can guarentee you that the tide is changing and very quickly too. Didnt you read what I wrote? The SSP is in control of Switzerland and they are most definitely far right. I won't repeat myself, but think for a second, in all your liberal fantasy, He who has the gold, rules. Switzerland has the gold. I lived in Europe for 3 years and have just recently returned home. I was far more outspoken there than I was ever here and so many people agreed with my views. No one likes multiculturalism (except you denialist bleeding hearts). The only people it works for are the inadequate blacks who now can share in all our accomplishments and technological advancements. You talk about how crime affects the blacks too - of course it does; but I have never been robbed by a white person. I have never had a family member assaulted by another white person or for that matter murdered. Every crime I have ever experienced, both here and elsewhere has been at the hands of a black; so don't for one minute spin your bullshit about how they are victims. Explain to me how we benifit from multiculturalism?? Perhaps it is in the Affirmative Action that 'makes us more diverse'. Perhaps it is in the Black Economic Empowerment that legally robs us of our possesions. Perhaps its in the fact that that we now are forced to live amoung them and so become victims of crimes that were never a problem for us before. Perhaps this multiculturalism benifits us in putting up with neighbours that slaughter animals in their front yard in our suburbs. Need I go on? I am not going to carry on; just thing about this - Have you ever met a poor liberal? Go ask the 1.5 million whites (out of the 4 million of us) that live under the bread line as a direct result of diversity and this newfound multiculturalism. Go to Danville in Pretoria and see the thousands of poor whites living in shacks with no food as a result of this new liberal democracy that foists multiculturalism on us. I bet you don't think about the countless of your own people that suffer for your liberal delusions. While you sit there in your warm home in Sandton/Constantia or wherever it is you bleeding hearts infest, do you think of your own people that are suffering?? No, you are more concerned with the millions of useless, oxygen wasting blacks; who on the smallest whim would not hesitate to slit your fat throat for something as small as R10; no matter how much of an ANC supporting veraaier you are.
Marthinus you said:
> Alleman, WatDeVok??? Is jy 'n kommunis?
To deduce from what Alleman said that he is 'a communist' is absurd, and considering that you are doing this while defending a fascist flag makes your statement totally hollow. Your sounding like certain ANC members that shout 'racist' at any criticism.
This has been a reasonably civilized and reasoned debate, lets keep it that way.
One other thing Marthinus. I have met Alleman. Do you know that he was involved in Operation Modular? Don't know what that is?
It was the beginning phase of the Cuito Cuanavale battle. The largest armoured battle in Africa since WW 2. Alleman was part of a relatively small army that took on 5 Angolan divisions, backed by Soviet military hardware including tanks and mig 23's, and with Cubans support. The Angolans had air superiority and still the SADF routed the opposition all along the Lomba river. Rather ironic calling him a communist for what was just decency. :)
Forgive me for getting worked up, but when i speak to older whites in south africa that still advocate this 'democracy' that we so suffer in, it just makes me see red. You wil have to go very far to find a liberal white youngster here in sa. Putting all political convictions aside, we will have to work together if we want a future here in africa. The only way 4ward for us is to create an exclusive afrikaner state. A simple fact is that we are white so the volkstaat will be white too otherwise its just another mini new sa, with all the same issues.
Martinus,
You mention an "exclusive Afrikaner state", but then you also mention "white". So, which is it?
Will any white person be able to live there? Or just white Afrikaners? My sister is married to a (white) Australian. Will their "baster" children be able to live there?
One could just hope that if it came to that, that young Afrikaner leaders will look at our past and learn form our mistakes and what we did right. One could just hope that if we had a volkstaat it will not be a multicultural and racially exclusive state in the way of the apartheid state. White English and Afrikaner.
Marthinus. There are not many examples of dual language (muliti-cultural) states working well. Even when both sides are nominally white. Quebec is a good example. There's a street in the middle of the city. On the one side its pretty much French, on the other English. Both the English and French Quebecers are very unhappy with the situation and there's a constant struggle for political and cultural power.
Multiracial societies have their problems for sure. But theres many more examples of successful multi-racial states in countries with a single language and culture. I'd go so far as to say that almost all societies become multi-racial to a degree once they reach a certain stage of development because of the way globalisation works.
The problems in these societies are completely manageable. They are often exciting places to be in.
The New SA has the worst of both worlds'challenges. Not only many races but many languages and cultures.
Now in a racially exclusive state you will have the following conundrums. Pietie goes on holiday to Cape Town and meets Marie, whos's coloured. He has to forget about her or contemplate emigrating from the Volkstaat if he wants to be with her. She cant join him.
What if a Chinese wants to open a restaurant in the booming Volkstaat capital where the burgers are tired of pap and boerewors??
What if a troop of the Royal Japanese ballet is invited to play at the Volkstaat state theater. One of them falls for a gorgeous boeremeisie and she becomes pregnant. Do we kick the kid out of the country because she's half Japanese? And the mother must follow?
What I find amazing about your argument is that you assume that coloureds would want to live with Afrikaners. Rather than having to keep them out your going to have your work cut out to convince them to join.
The following is also likely to happen in your white Afrikaans, English state. The parlaiment wont be split along normal lines of left and right, but along English and Afrikaans. Afrikaners will be in a majority and in power. But they will tend to have less money. Documentary makers will come from all over the world, but in particular England to cover this strange racially exclusive state.
The English whites will be interviewed because they can speak English well. Thy will say very eloquently, its those Afrikaners, were trying to change the system. Were trying to get blacks in to work in our factories, but the Afrikaners don't want that.
Perhaps they will really want that, perhaps not. But they will have less to loose and face to save if this state also goes tits up.
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